Talking Arts: What is Arts Engagement?

Colm Cunningham: 0:12

Hello to you, it's fantastic to have you listening again to the Dementia Podcast. I'm your host, Colm Cunningham back here in Sydney, Australia. And it's my pleasure to be looking at arts and their benefits in relation to dementia care. And to do that, I'm in conversation with Michelle Heldon. Michelle is the Arts and Dementia Coordinator at the Museum of Contemporary Art here in Australia. She also is a lead artist for Arts Engagement at HammondCare, but she's going to be sharing a lot more than that with you about her experience. It's really interesting to be talking about an area like this, because in the warm up, Michelle was sharing three decades of knowledge around arts and it's importance and that's what I was feeling as we built up to this podcast, that there's been a constant theme as people start to think about how to support people living with dementia, that the arts comes in very early as a very important core part of enabling people to have their voice heard, to be engaged, and sometimes to provide significant insights to that person and their story. So it's such an important subject to be talking about. Michelle, it's great to have you on the show.

Michelle Heldon: 1:22

Thank you Colm. It's a pleasure to be here.

Colm Cunningham: 1:25

Do you mind starting with tell me? I mean, you've got a few hats, what's your job? What? How did you get into all of this?

Michelle Heldon: 1:33

Well, I'm so excited to be here. Because this is my, this is my passion. And it's really come from a very young age. So always being engaged in in the arts, always painting or dancing or moving around. But the real, the real moment for me came was when my grandmother was diagnosed with dementia when I was just finishing high school, and she was living remotely at the time. And my, my mother made a decision to bring her to live at home with us. And at that time, I was making a decision as to what I would do, where I would go next with my career, and I was going to go and either study art or be a nurse and I had enrolled in doing a degree at the National Art School at the time. But this diagnosis and the impact that it made on my family and me it was it was really interesting. And it was something that I wanted to explore more. So I reached out and I connected with HammondCare actually, and that was sort of the start of my journey was working as a community care worker and going into the homes of people and connecting with them. But because I'd started this degree in fine art I brought, I started to bring art into the home. And and because the experience of what was happening in my own home, I I started to really reach out and want to learn and learn more and you know, learn all I could about dementia. It was a really interesting time, it was a tricky time, it was you know, having having grandma come and live, you know, I remember that I was it was my room that she moved into. So I moved to a different room, right, and just connecting with mum, you know, I think my grandmother, you know, had a feeling of really wanting to always have someone with her and feeling like that there was no one there was no one there with her. And that was really challenging for my mum having to you know, juggle kind of supporting I live with, you know, one of five children. So there was a lot of us there and, and really just being able to sit with grandma. Grandma was used to do a lot of hand craft things, but not so much in the visual arts of what I was doing. And a big thing for grandma was actually just sitting with her to begin with, it was watching me just watching me paint and she began to be kind of interested in it. But music as you know, it was so incredibly powerful. And she did used to play the organ quite a bit. And I've already mentioned too, I'm not a terribly good singer, but that was the the really, that was the entry and for my grandma. And definitely for other people that I visited in the community was just singing. It didn't matter that they didn't have a very good voice. And it was actually the singing or the music that I would just place a brush or a pen in front of her. And to begin with, she just sort of played with them. And I mean, that's something I really want to share about today is this permission to play, you know, in in, you know, in a stage in your life where maybe you haven't felt like you know, you're able to kind of have have permission to do that. And then yeah, we began to do collaborative work together. So actually painting or drawing together and you know, I think mum was really able to find other ways to connect with her that she wasn't kind of expecting, expecting to do. Yeah.

Colm Cunningham: 4:35

And it's really important what you've said, because I think back and this is me putting age on myself. I was reading a Scandinavian study that really challenged me because they were saying that people who were seen as getting more agitated if you actually sang when you were assisting with personal care that it made a massive difference, and called out exactly what you've said, which is don't start thinking about how good a singer you are, think about the engagement. And so I did start to do exactly what they said the research was showing, which was people actually didn't get as agitated. And there weren't all as much instances of people pushing away or being angry. I guess in that sense, it would be great to hear how you describe arts in the dementia field and what you think we should be hearing about, you know, it because people might think, Oh, is it just music? Is it just painting is just so I'd love to hear what I imagine is a very broad church of areas of engagement through the arts.

Michelle Heldon: 5:34

Definitely not, I really believe that, that we're all creative, that all people are creative, and tapping into that creative self, you know, can bring so much potential for connection for connection back into yourself, but then also connection with others and with your world, and the wider world as well. And yeah, definitely, you know, I am a visual artist, myself, but I work multidisciplinary, I share and connect with other artists, and those artists work across the field of dance performance, movement, you know, music, but all the visual arts as well, and what they contain, you know, there's, there's so much there, in terms of, you know, work through your working working with assemblage, you know, working in the installation, or clay work, you know, artists can come in so many different shapes and forms. And I really thinks and so can we, as people, all of us. So bringing the creative arts to someone living with dementia, there's just this huge toolkit of things that you can connect with someone on, you know, the Museum of Contemporary Art, Australia, we say art is for everyone. And it's just finding that that doorway for them to connect. So So yes, I've, you know, even though I am, you know, my skill set is a visual artist and a painter, that's what I work with, I tap into definitely, movement is a huge thing when working with people with dementia, sound, song, music, even if it's just, you know, tapping, rhythm, but it's this, it's this exchange that I'm really interested in. Creative arts can bring an element of exchange between people that is very unique, it's very unique, because you're speaking to something within a person, you know, something that that is very inherent into who they are, and the person and who they are now, not necessarily who they used to be or who they were.

Colm Cunningham: 7:23

Oh, that's very interesting. I would love for you to just touch on that a little bit more, because I realise I've heard stories of people saying, he's not a painter. And yet, when I've heard about people engaging with art, this person suddenly has a creativity that's been opened up it does that resonate with you?

Michelle Heldon: 7:41

Yes, yeah. 100%. And, and actually, the stories that I love to share are those stories about someone who I, you know, and I hear it all the time, you know, I don't have a creative bone in my body, or I can't draw a straight line. And we don't really like straight lines anyway. Yes, often it's, it's reconnecting with something or a part of themselves that maybe they haven't discovered before. And that discovery can be so incredibly empowering not just for them, but for their family, for their, for their carer, for their loved ones, for their community, as well. You know, and I think that really shifts this idea of what living with dementia is, and what it can be, and to have this discovery for someone and to and to sharing that with them. It's just so impair so, so profound, it's really profound,

Colm Cunningham: 8:29

And how do we break some of the mystery? I mean, we had Diana Kerr on last year talking about how they didn't want to be a music for the brain group, they wanted to music for music's sake. And if it helped people, that was great, but it was actually about let's not turn this into something clinical, or, you know, I know, we use the word therapeutic, how do we sort of break down the barriers? And you know, because I'm sure you've seen some where people think, well, we must have an artist in residence to do this, or we must have all of these tools in place. And obviously, that's important part of a spectrum of things to be offered, but just love to know how you must have some experience of how we push through and get people to not be I guess, nervous or fearful or thinking that everything has to be perfectly constructed. Before we dive in?

Michelle Heldon: 9:16

Yes, I think that a big a big thing there that you're touching on is is expectations and expectations that have been set by different societies really, you know, in terms of what art is, who can access it. And it's interesting working in a big institution like the Museum of Contemporary Art, and I think they really pride themselves in terms of breaking down of that, you know, I think contemporary art and then I see it all the time in my Artful Art in Dementia programme, is that there's these there's so many doorways open just through showing the different forms of art and how people can express themselves and for someone living with dementia, as you said, you know, you want to open that doorway for them but also for their family because often the doors closed by the family who says, oh, no, this is there's a certain type of person or or certain type that can access art. So for me, and also in my travels a lot, so I've done some art residencies around the world where I've tapped into connecting with people living with dementia in some smaller communities, it is really being able to, you know, show or engage with someone in many different ways and concentrate on the process. So being a let allowing to showing the importance of process and also the importance of participation, and what that can look like. And I think at HammondCare, with with the Arts Engagement Programme, and what we do there, it's really allowing someone to make that mark, to sing that note to, you know, move their body, and being able to share that that process is so, so important. And it can look in many different ways. And I think being able to tap into different art forms, and not just the art forms, but the different genres that can kind of contain I mean, I've, I remember connecting in a small community in Greenland, so I stayed there for a month or so in a little town called Upernavic. And we were connected with a home that there with people living with dementia, and I remember sitting with a lady and connecting with her, and she was telling me some stories, in Greenlandic, but the local school teacher was translating for me. And I sat with her and just drew just sort of doodled while while she was talking, and she was really kind of engaged and just kind of watching watching this. And later on, I developed with a fellow artist a series of work around this woman and her stories. And we translated them into an art exhibition in the little museum on their island. And the townspeople came along, and they said that it just opened up their eyes and their perspective and that they'd never kind of thought about or connected in this way. Through the arts, I think it it has so much potential, I think that you know, the arts to share in so many different ways.

Colm Cunningham: 12:06

And I guess leading on from that I'm figuring that, you know, often in care settings, you will have a group of people who, because they've moved, and Australia is a great melting pot of different cultural groups. Sounds like art has a potential to actually provide us with insight, but also provide us with a common connection as well. Have you experienced that through the Arts and Engagement programme?

Michelle Heldon: 12:29

Yes, yeah, definitely. I think on that note, I'd really like to explore that idea of exchange again, because I think there's something in that the artist coming and meeting with someone, whoever they are, whatever their story may have been, wherever they've come from, or where they are, it's really meeting them in that moment. In that point, and I think that kind of taps into this idea of not, not what they who they used to be or what they used to do. Although that concern that could sometimes come out, that's something that they want to share with you. But the artists connecting with them and having this exchange, you know, a conversation through through moving their bodies or connecting and sharing. And then that being the vehicle of connection between people, and that it isn't an artist as an expert, kind of coming in and connecting but rather, working alongside that person, and then how that can be engaged in with connecting with other people. So there's a few examples. So the movement artists that that we work with on our arts engagement team, connected with a person, an Aboriginal person living in their home, so it wasn't in a residential setting, but connecting and learning through through dance and it was it was offered by this this woman what was connecting with her about kind of her connection with with the land and and it wasn't the artist, the dance and musician teaching her how to dance even though she wasn't, you know, a dancer and has all these skills. But it was it was an exchange, mirroring and connecting and allowing this person to be seen in in what she was doing it in her movement. And I think there's something really, really expands that idea of connection when that sharing in that exchange can happen. And I've seen it in in groups where it doesn't seem to be any, like barriers, or boundaries, they seem to kind of float away and the exchanges is really interesting. One other story is a programme that I did which has our Arts on Prescription at Home programme which is our arts and dementia programme for HammondCare and I worked I worked with a family who had it had it was the son was looking after his his parents and his parents were living with dementia his they were interested in engaging in this programme but really had no sort of previous experience in art and connecting with them on a weekly basis. I would go into the home and sit with them. And the the father we worked on a series of work that were connected to, to his culture. And we developed sort of some symbols and things. And I worked with him very closely, and the son would sit and connect. And he and I said, Would you like to be involved too? Like, how would you like to engage? And he said, I've always wanted to do portraiture. And then, I said, Well, you know, I can help support setting you up. And he would, he worked on this portrait of his father, over the course of his beautiful, amazing, amazing portrait of his father. And, and we also connected in with his his very frail mother, who was who was in a bed in the next room, and I did some printmaking with her. But the most amazing thing that started to happen and engage was that the family began to share this back with their family back in India. And they would send face, FaceTime and send photos back to them and connect in. And they were like, Oh, we knew we didn't know that you were artistic or your creative. And the son in particular was so impacted by the skills that he didn't know he had drawing and connecting in with his his his father, but there was such an amazing connected space, community space that was created, people would knock on the door all the time, I'd have people kind of popping in and they would sit down too and create as well, the granddaughter really brought it on board, as something she wanted to do to extend beyond the programme. She was studying, you know, interested in studying art, and it really helped help drive her but I just thought that reach was really interesting that sending back, you know, to family overseas, and also the father in his connection, his connection into culture, his culture, and these symbols that were very, very important and special to him. And, and I learned so much through that, you know, as the artist coming and connecting, and we created a portfolio of work created by the mother and the father, and then the portrait series by the son. And it was just, I remember them just saying to me that it's just something that they would cherish forever, but also just this amazing thing that brought a new kind of connection with people that they weren't able to connect with.

Colm Cunningham: 17:06

I'm also interested, you've mentioned the Arts on Prescription research is there anything for our listeners, that you'd really like to call out for, because it was a wonderful project and piece of work. And I'd love to know what you'd like to reflect to us on that.

Michelle Heldon: 17:20

Yeah, it was, it was big. And, you know, a lot of our research came out of the UK, you know, in the UK being being such forerunners for Arts on Prescription and, and connecting in and, you know, we learned we still have those connections, I think, you know, there was sort of two parts to our research, because we had the community dwelling research to begin with, which was to do with groups and bringing community groups together. And then we had our pilot, which was the AOP at home Arts on Prescription at Home arts in dementia pilot as well, there's a lot to share about it, I guess. But I guess the big takeaway from me was this idea of eudaimonic happiness, or long lasting happiness, so not that fleeting moment of happiness, but something that can be long lasting, and that the creative arts can bring that, you know, we've already kind of shared some of the outcomes, just through the stories in terms of, you know, the empowerment, and, you know, bringing, there was there was, you know, a lot around empowerment, a new sense of self, people, a new sense of connection, social connection with people, but that, that eudaimonic, you know, that was just kind of new for me. And that discovery, I think, was really interesting that that feeling of happiness, that doesn't have to be fleeting, that it can stay on. And I think for someone living with dementia, you know, if dementia if their type of dementia is impacting memory, which doesn't always as we know, but to have that something is long lasting, beyond you know, that that moment, can last you know, that feeling that connection, and that can translate is is really exciting.

Colm Cunningham: 18:57

It is and I'm laughing, because I used to use the term positive hangover, it's a much better term to use. But just you're absolutely right, that thing that can't be captured, but in terms of somebody necessarily saying, Oh, well, I've had this in this benefit, but you can see it, and it's still there. And even in their mood, you know, days or weeks later. And you've talked about family a few times and looking at the journey that people have to go through us I often I understand the families suddenly have to start focusing on the very practical of the day to day the person's care needs, making sure they're hydrated and everything else. And then you guys come in, and suddenly, it does seem like there's an opening up again. Is there a challenge there with helping families be able to release themselves again, I guess because they've had to focus so much on the very practical, how do I make sure my person the person I love is getting the care they need?

Michelle Heldon: 19:51

Definitely this releasing, I really love that word in terms of even you know, releasing themselves from their roles that they've had been in and then allowing them to kind of open up to, to a new potential with things, you know, something a really simple, amazing engagement I had was an online an online programme, where we brought a people group of people together from the community. And we connected with with the artist Hany Armanious and it was a work about how he was excited about transforming objects into ordinary things to extraordinary things and, and I will connecting and it was one man in particular who was wasn't very much engaged in the programme, he was living with dementia, and his wife was joining the programme too. And she would really compensate all the time really, really jumping in and helping to kind of validate their place there. And, and I said, let's, let's all bring a special object from home, we all held up our special object to the screen. And I said, you know, like Hany Armanious' work where we let's wrap our object in something like it's a gift, you know, carefully wrap it in tissue paper. And Bernie piped up all of a sudden, and said, Can I show you how to wrap this object? And he began to wrap this object so carefully, and so perfectly, in a way that we haven't seen taking so much care to fold the edges. And he held this up to the screen and, and he got emotional. And he said, Thank you so much for allowing me to share my gift with you. This is something I'm really, really good at. And look I don't know whether he was really good at wrapping or whether he was really good at teaching or whether he was I'm not sure what, it doesn't matter. He had something that he shared. And he we really saw him open up. His wife called me later and said, this has given me all these ideas of things to do with him at home that I never thought of before, you know, being able to fold and wrap things and, and just to spend time but to give him meaning, meaningful time. So yeah, I think there really is something in terms of definitely the carer's seeing potential, but then that releasing for the carer of themselves. I think in realising that, oh, I can give myself permission to create and to make and tap into that side of me, which can be so so freeing for them.

Colm Cunningham: 22:06

And you've also mentioned the emotion. And as I've been listening to you, you know, it is rising in me that I was even thinking about Naomi Feil's work with Gladys Wilson, where they connect through music, and anytime I show that video, you know, I know what the end of it half the room is going to be in bits with the emotions that are raised. And I guess, can we talk a little bit about, you know, the fact that I think the arts at times is going to mean that emotions or past things are going to come up and any advice on how we feel safe and all of that or prepare for that?

Michelle Heldon: 22:39

I do really feel that the arts within them hold a safe place, it's a bit of a container, I think the creative arts, it's something that you've got to go back to it's a it's a place of expression, but it all I think if we're able to honour that expression, and allow it to be expressed, they'll be there, they'll come back again, you know, and I've seen it happen, you know, and I think if you can just sit within that, and hold hold that space, and realise that, that, you know, that you've provided that just I think arts can be that tool for for holding it anyway. And you know, as artists on you know, on our programme, we're not many of us might have skills in in therapy, you know, I am also an art therapist myself, but we work as artists, not as therapists in this role. And I think it is really important to know that, that that's where our role starts and ends is just being allowed allowing for that expression to happen and, and using the arts to be able to come back to whether that's shifting to something else, if that's what you feel like needs to happen, or just allowing it to, to, you know, run its course, and there's so many different art forms that, as I've said to you that you can pull on it and tap into, so that can help, you know, shift shift if you need to. But I think more often than not, it's just allowing to hold the space. At HammondCare, you know, we we're part of a wider team. So we're part of the Restorative Care Team, the artists have been made Allied Health Professionals, which is so exciting. And that was following our our Arts on Prescription research that we did. And I think so we have other people that we can tap into if we need to, if if you know we need some further support or help with that.

Colm Cunningham: 24:24

Now, I'm getting the privilege of seeing how you talk with your hands as well. And because I'm in the studio here with you, you touched on screens earlier. There COVID-19 obviously put a challenge or a barrier or be interested in how you overcame that and I guess as you look forward where we may well have less of that barrier around what learnings it's given us about how we might still use that medium as one of the ways to engage with people.

Michelle Heldon: 24:52

Gosh COVID Hey? It you know what, it brought some real amazing surprises for me and In the realm of people living with dementia. There was a lot of potential hidden potential that I didn't realise was there and maybe I never would have explored if COVID hadn't hit. Definitely with my work at the Museum of Contemporary Art, you know, when our the lockdown hit in Sydney here, that second one, you know, there wasn't we were sort of like, oh, well, there goes our programmes, you know, we're not going to and yet, the need was so, so incredibly great, you know, and that the isolate, you know, the impact of isolation for anyone, but for people living with dementia and their carers not being able to have that routine and that access. So I felt, I really felt like we had a responsibility, and the creative arts, you know, could offer something here. So shifting things to online posting packages to people. So both in HammondCare, and the Museum of Contemporary Art, but we you know, these online programmes I was a lot of people said to me, Oh the digital space won't work for people living with dementia. Right? And I was like, okay, but let's try anyway. And how wrong could I've been? You know, I think it was, you know, we talk about digital fatigue for people, but for a lot of people living with dementia, or some older people, not that everyone living with dementia is older. But some people, it was a new, exciting thing for them. It was there was a I remember, I remember grandpa connecting with it. And it was it was like this magic trick, that suddenly there was these people online. So I think that that wasn't a barrier, whereas I thought it was so that there was this slight kind of magic and this ability to connect. But the thing that the real discovery from for me was, was was transforming the home environment into a creative space. And that was always a bit of a barrier for us. Because we were having people come and visit us in real life and connect. And, and that was wonderful. And, you know, we're having so many incredible outcomes from that. But when they then when they went home, they said, Oh, but we need, we need you to be there. Like, it's so hard to translate that right. And but yet bringing, allowing to be invited into the home of someone online meant that that space for them was transformed. And suddenly they had their own creative space at home. And that translation seems to allow them to then continue on in that creative space, they started to see that creativity was all around them, there was potential for that in, in the spices in their kitchen, you know, we would do things with smells and connecting with the spices in their kitchen, and then turning them into paintings ink paintings or, or, you know, walking, collecting a leaf on a walk outside, and what could we do with that and transform with that what things made sound in their house, that sort of thing. So I think that was a really amazing discovery for me that that was a COVID gift, and we don't talk about COVID gifts. And the other thing for me was, was for the carers, you know, which was really huge, was allowing them to, to connect in new ways, you know, that they weren't didn't think kind of were possible, you know, it was a new way to have, you know, to have a box kind of delivered to their home that was, you know, all this care had been put into how the things work, but but the different objects and stuff, and also the reach, you know, we suddenly, you know, we were only reaching people that were living close to us that could not only live in close that could travel, but but their needs, you know, gave that allowed them to travel, what about those people whose needs didn't allow them to travel and come in. So suddenly, we were reaching more people, as well, we were meeting, like reaching people that were remote living remotely, but we're also reaching people that couldn't leave there that you know, or that the leaving home was difficult for them. So. So it did, it did really expand our audience. And it really showed us these new ways of being able being able to connect, as you said, I think we will cultivate and support those ideas and, and combine I'm really interested in these hybrid ideas of linking together, you know, what if we do have some real life things, but then connect online as well, or, or share through exchange through packages and letters and things like that.

Colm Cunningham: 29:11

Michelle, I think one of the other challenges of COVID was that for families caring, they weren't able to network in the same way. So I imagine their battery resource of energy and ideas was shrinking a little bit. Was that something that came through?

Michelle Heldon: 29:25

Yes, yeah. Look, people were really desperate for new, like ideas and ways to connect. And one, you know, thing that we were hearing was that people, you know, their loved one may have been in a residential home care home, and they weren't able to reach them during a lockdown or COVID outbreak, and they were calling them, you know, and speaking to them as much as possible, but there was, you know, they only got so far with that, and they just felt it, you know, as you said, they could have sort of ran out. So we offered some programmes, where we would connect families together online, because they would call in from the home and that person would would connect and then we put we would, and the artists would be there. And then a number of family members would be there. And we read would run a creative programme over a series of weeks, you know, and this was quite specific when you know, the lockdown was happening. And the reports were from the family, it was just such an amazing gift to be able to connect, you know, in a new way, but to give them new ideas, you know, they were just sort of what did they, you know, they ran out of things to be able to say to them to say, you know, so suddenly they were, you know, they were dancing with their mum online, you know, and connecting or singing or, you know, connecting and looking at an artwork together, we would share on the screen an artwork and we would look and engage in that way, we would encourage the care staff to if there was a theme that week, they might come dressed up, you know, we would come dressed up, we had this, we had this great one where we were talking about performance and engaging in performance and and we just asked them to have some alfoil. And we made jewellery and decorations for ourselves and did a little performance, but each of us did it. And there's this real wonder moment of like, I have this and holding it up to your screen. Do you have that too in the person holding it up? And going? Yes, I have that too. So just connecting, you know, really breaking down that barrier and being able to connect,

Colm Cunningham: 31:11

I guess one of the things I'm interested in is that, obviously, you bring so much expertise here and experience for somebody listening, who's thinking about how do we get engaged, wherever they are in the world, they might sometimes think that it has to be over engineered, and they need to be an expert. What would you say to them?

Michelle Heldon: 31:31

Yeah, no, I think that, that, let's go back to that permission to play thing. I think that learning the importance of play, you know, for for all people and not you know, there's there's play in terms of connecting, you know, with children, and that's the word that we often associate, but permission to play. And there's this wonderful book, Playfulness and Dementia by John Killick. And, you know, being, it's almost like, if you can give yourself permission to play, then you can meet someone on that terms and have that exchange with them. And I don't think you have to be an expert to do that. But you do have to commit to playing yourself, you know, to being able to tap into your own creativity. And maybe that's a really interesting thing of what we're discussing at the moment is it's not just delivering care to someone living with dementia or engaging with people. But it's, it's also tapping, like looking back into ourselves and what makes us tick, and what we're passionate about and what we're creative about, and what are our toolkit of things that we can bring and share. And we might not be a painter or musician or a singer or a dancer. But we do have something innately within us that wants to connect with someone else with that other person. And I think it's, it's about maybe finding that for yourself, and then being able to connect in.

Colm Cunningham: 32:58

Michelle, it's all of those things, but it's also having people like yourself, that actually give us the permission to be freed up and the passion, which you have given us in spadeloads today. Thank you so much for joining the Dementia Podcast and being part of this important conversation.

Michelle Heldon: 33:14

Thank you. It's, as you can see, I just I could talk about it all day.

Colm Cunningham: 33:19

And we do want to continue that conversation. Michelle shared so much with you as our listeners. We'd love to hear your thoughts and ideas about what's happening in your country that we can connect with other people to encourage them in the way Michelle has us today. Thank you so much for listening and joining us in this podcast. And please do provide us with those feedback ideas because we can connect them in our show notes, as we will all the great ideas that we're going to get and website URLs from Michelle that will make sure in our show notes, including that important research, but let's hear from you as well. Email us on hello@dementiacentre.com And thank you for listening. We hope to see you on our next episode. Bye for now.